Yardstick

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In recent years there have been repeated discussions about the yardstick numbers of the 2.4mR. The discussion is documented below. You can continue it under comments - because it is a permanent topic!

Yardstick numbers Chiemsee: www.chiemsee-yardstick.de/zahlen.html

Yard embroidery numbers Edersee: db.wettsegeln-edersee.de/yardstick.php

Letter from Boris Hepp, Technik, Deutscher Segler-Verband e. V. (June 2014):

"Unfortunately, we have not yet received any rating recommendations for the 2.4mR, probably because this ship is not the typical yardstick aspirant on the coast.

The DSV list is naturally somewhat coastal-heavy, because the inland lakes expressly have their own district lists, and these differ significantly from the values ​​in the DSV list.

This is also a good thing because the fleet composition and local wind conditions can be taken into account so much better.

For the 2.4mR we would suggest that you take the known value and empirically improve it yourself on site. "

Comment from Stefan Klötzing (January 2009):

"Lasse Klötzing starts in his club (PYC) at the Wednesday regattas with a yardstick of 120, It’s okay. ”

Comment from Meino Nanninga (May 2010):

“We had the number of yard sticks for Lake Chiemsee last year 122 established. With two regattas sailed, it turned out that the number is not that bad. In a group of keel yachts with yardstick numbers between 2 and 106, I made 122rd place in 13 boats. I had the 3th place in the overall ranking of all boat classes under 73 boats. "

Comment from Christian Bodler (November 2012):

"Loud www.chiemsee-yardstick.de we sail with 122 Points, however, it should be noted that due to the weak winds, the slower boats are rated up to 2 points higher than at Lake Constance or at the DSV. "

Comment from Detlef Müller-Böling (October 2014):

"When 121 I had no chance of flat water against Finns, but against lasers and Europes and all thick ships. 124 seems to me very comfortable after previous experiences… "

Comment from Jürgen Schwittai (October 2014):

“The 2.4mR cuts a very good figure in light winds, so there is an impression that it could drive everyone (except the Finns) away and run a lot more height. On light wind areas there was a general impression that the yardstick number of 122 was too high. T. looked funny. With more wind, from 120-3 Bft, however, things change.
After long discussions in NRW, we went on a trial basis 117 agreed at BSNW regattas. At our internal regattas 120. "

Commentary by Wolfgang Grupe (October 2014):

“In the BSNW we have been experimenting with the YSZ for 2.4mR for several years. We initially followed existing ones from Chiemsee and Edersee (122). When Jürgen Schwittai won with it and Stefan Kaste also sailed far up front, resentment slowly came into the scene; migratory birds, yngling and above all Efsixen sailed with them. Set the number to 2 two years ago. Furthermore, 120 were ahead. At the last BSNW JHV we only had the number for 2.4 118 set as a test. Boat classes. Individual mistakes made by other sailing crews also contributed to the good performance of the 2.4. As Dept. Head of Sailing in the BSNW, I'll be the number 120 want to strive again. Incidentally, there are hardly any regatta results from which a "reasonable" number could be derived. Complete information is usually missing. "

Comment from Michael Büsing (October 2014):

“With light wind it is very clear that you are in the front with the 2.4mR.
What you do not consider is that you are caught in the hull speed and only see the other ships from behind in more wind. The hull speed is 2,43 * root from the waterline.
In my area I am under the Chiemsee yardstick number 122 calculated."

Comment from Michael Jakobs (October 2014):

“I participated in several YS regattas this year and I am with 118 or 120 been rated. In my opinion it is a little too little. Of course, we often hear that our boats are too fast with little wind, but Michael Büsing is right: as soon as the wind increases we are at a disadvantage and if there are still some with Spinacker or Gennacker you have no chance. "

Comment from Ullrich Libor (October 2014):

“I took part in 3 yardstick regattas here in Saarland. Had the first one 124 reported, but was on by the State Sailing Association 118 set. 3rd at the club championship with Finn and laser in front of me. 4th in front of me at the national championship with corsair, Finn and laser. "

Comment from Heiko Kröger (September 2015):

“Yardstick is always unfair. Sometimes more sometimes less. It always depends on the area and the wind strength and ultimately also on the courses. As soon as boats glide and others don't, the scissors gap more clearly than when everyone is driving in displacement mode. Theoretically, the yardstick would have to be designed depending on the territory and wind, and that for every boat class. You can hardly do that. The purpose of yardstick is that you can do club races with anything that swims and everyone can participate. So rule number 1 is: have fun and don't take everything so seriously. I think a yardstick is on open areas at 124 - 125 and on small ones lake districts at 122 - 123 should lie. "

Comments by Jörg Feder (October 2014, September 2015):

"I can only agree with what Boris said. Our Edersee is more known for unstable winds. Since our steamer has a little advantage, because nan can easily convert like a dinghy. At the same time, the ratio of boat length / sail area to hull weight is rather stiff. The official number for the betting sailing community is 118. It is also quite low because all three participants were in the top ten at the first regatta, which of course is angry. We have a very mixed boat size field. In light winds you sometimes have to let the "big ones" drive away before the wind even reaches you below. Then you can catch up.

So it really depends on the specifics of the area.

3 wind situations:

  • You turn your lap with the wind in between and you should actually shoot down (1,5-2) Here it all depends on the number of sails, exact sail area to wetted area. Here the dinghy turns, pulls allowed 1x and won 1 meter. We displacers have stress to get the goat in motion first, then we go. When it comes to "getting on the move", we have advantages if we are not covered.
  • It winds nicely with 3: riding does not bring sooo much, the speed is still so low that the difference between displacer and dinghy does not yet matter: our small turning angle is an advantage here. Less speed, but shorter distances. At the same time, we are agile. We can keep up
  • It blows tight to nasty (4/5): The water resistance increases with the speed until we are caught between the bow and stern wave at hull speed.
    a)
    The dinghy: the bulkhead comes to the back, bow can over the bow wave, hooray we slide, now it goes.
    B)
    The yacht: length runs, longer waterline = higher hull speed. We will hardly be able to keep up here.

So far everyone knows, only: Situation 1 is more theoretical in Flensburg, while Sitiation 3 is one of the highlights in Prien. Actually, these 3 wind situations also represent 3 yardstick numbers.

It is actually fairer to have a yardstick margin to take into account the specifics. However, this again means that you have to agree with the race director which range of the range is applicable here.

Conclusion: Exchange ideas, report regattas to us and the DSV and in time it will become more concrete or we can make a KV proposal. "

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3 Comments

  • A somewhat longer view of yardstick regattas with the 2.4mR (by Poldi Käther)
    ================================================== ==================================

    First of all about my person:
    I've been sailing for around 5 decades. Started as a teenager in the 420, then various dinghy and keel boat classes. Sometimes as a pilot, sometimes as a helmsman. I have never won major championships, sometimes in the back, sometimes in the middle, sometimes in the front. I have also sailed “big boat” on the North and Baltic Seas or the Mediterranean, but never on regattas, but only for the purpose of relaxing on vacation. But here, too, I always had the reputation with fellow sailors and family that I could not sit still, but was always fidgeting on some lines and looking for windshifts.
    But the top priority was and still is: always with a lot of fun and joy.

    I was able to teach students at the TU Berlin the theoretical background for these areas through a teaching assignment for the subject "Yacht Design and Sailing Theory". The number of listeners showed the great interest in this topic.
    I also volunteered as a betting sailor for the Berlin Sailing Association to train referees and race managers. I always have the racing rules. As race director, I have some experience in holding club and ranking regattas, at Warnemünder Woche and in Germans up to several world championships.
    In short - almost everything is theoretically clear to me, but the implementation of the theory in my own regatta sailing practice is another topic.

    Construction class versus unit class:
    With unit classes in sailing, the building regulations of a boat are precisely defined. The boats are, so to speak, "the same"; success depends largely on the skill of the sailor. That is why, for example, only one-off classes are sailed at the Olympic Games.
    In contrast, the limits for construction classes are not so narrow and give the designer the opportunity to incorporate his ideas for increasing speed. The technical development of yachting benefits significantly from this. Sailing performance is not the only determining factor.

    Comparison of different sailing boats:
    Since sailing has been practiced as a sport, people have been thinking about how to make different boats comparable. From 1896 there was the ever more refined "belt rule", then from 1933 the "International Rule". In 1970 the "International Offshore Rule (IOR)" was launched. Then later "IMS - International Measurement System", "ORC - Offshore Racing Congress" etc.
    All of these methods attempt (t) to make different designs comparable using calculation formulas that take into account different boat factors. And as it is, there were and are people who investigate the influencing factors in these formulas and build boats as optimally as possible. This leads to sometimes extreme constructions, long overhangs, extreme widths or lengths, depending on what was punished or favored in the formula used.

    The yardstick system approaches the problem completely differently. No calculations are carried out here, but the boats are given an empirical factor based on experience gained in several regattas. Adjustments to this yardstick number are made depending on the area. Boats that are built for long distances at sea or comfort, otherwise have little chance in small narrow areas where many maneuvers are required compared to small, light boats that can turn quickly. And vice versa.

    The German Sailing Association writes on its website that "the yardstick system ... is used as a measurement system for club and fun regattas."
    However, some principles must be observed. Regatta boats and cruise ships must never be compared in one rating. Boats must continue to be rated in different yardstick groups, a boat with a YS factor of 99 cannot be compared to a boat with a YS factor of over 120, a dinghy cannot be compared to a touring sailing boat. There is a simple calculation of how changing wind strengths (wind hole, decreasing or increasing wind) affect the calculated time during a race. Please refer http://berliner-segler-verband.de/wettsegeln.html => "Influence of changes in wind strength during YS races"

    The following things apply especially to the 2.4mR class:
    The boat is a light, agile but classic displacement boat. Boats that cannot slide or glide like modern keel boats or dinghies set a speed limit. This is due to the "Froude number", which describes the resistance of ships in the wave system that he himself created. From this, the so-called hull speed can be derived, that is, the speed beyond which a ship cannot go in displacement mode - "it does not come through its own bow wave". The hull speed in knots is calculated according to S = 2.43 * root [waterline length]. For our 2.4 this means a maximum achievable speed of 4.3 knots. We reach this quickly at 3 Beaufort, if the wind gets stronger, the boat does not get any faster, unlike larger boats or gliders.

    The area and the course to be sailed also have a strong influence. On small, narrow areas (e.g. rivers or dams), where a lot has to be turned on a cross course, the 2.4 is at wind speeds up to 3 Bft. unbeatable. It is light, starts quickly, turns extremely quickly and has a very small turning angle. In these conditions, our boat works like an arrow. As well as larger courses prevail or the wind with 4 or more Bft. blowing, we have no chance. Everything grins past us with a grin.
    I only say that if you know the "physical background", you can sit back, grin and enjoy the round of beer of the winner after the race.
    It was the same for me at several club races, in 2.4 conditions you are a serious competitor for Platu 25, J24 or other sporty keel boats. But in other circumstances, a "welcome victim" also for touring ships.

    In club races, however, the commonality and the cooperation of all sailing groups is in the foreground, the victory is welcome - winning makes friendly - but not the most important thing.

    With us in Berlin on the Tegeler See and the Oberhavel the 2.4mR is rated with a YS number of 122. As I said, with 2.4 conditions you sail with it in the front, in other conditions more in the middle or in the back. Of course, the participants' sailing experience is also decisive. And the condition of the underwater ship should not be underestimated. Boats that show significant growth due to long lying in the water are clearly at a disadvantage compared to a boat that has a clean underwater ship due to the resulting increased water resistance.

    I don't think anything of a “wind-dependent” number of yard sticks. The wind blows differently throughout the year and from different directions. So the 2.4 times better, sometimes worse off. But this also applies to all other boats ...
    So it averages over several races per year.

    Summary:
    The winner should always be fun on yardstick races!
    The sailing performance of a team can only be assessed in one class without other influences.

    With this in mind, enjoy sailing
    Poldi

  • Andreas

    Yes Poldi, that's right!
    As the organizer of the kangaroo (yes, with “h” behind….) - Regatta on the Alster, one of the largest Wednesday regattas in Germany with not infrequently over 100 different boats at the start, we can report a lot of fun.

    https://www.hsc-regatta.org/ergebnis/kg2019gesamt.pdf

    Yardstick is of course not fair; how could such a simple formula be, even if much more complex remuneration formulas never really made it !? With the kangaroo procedure (compensation due to time offset at the start), there is also the unreliability of the wind forecast (which determines the length of the regatta and the start times). If the wind decreases (evening calm), the slow boats have an advantage because they have already covered a larger part of the route with more wind. On the other hand, if it increases (evening breeze), it is the other way round… ..so each boat class has “its day” and that is averaged well over the season with 21 races. Accordingly, sometimes J22, Conger, Piraten, Contender or Fiven, sometimes Laser, OK's, H-Jollen (Elb- and Renn-), Migratory Birds and you name it are among the winners of the day. Even the sole (and it is REALLY slow) has a top ten finish every now and then, if there is only a tram ride and the dinghies are not yet gliding …….
    Our race director sits out the few eternal complainers and YS debators with the necessary calm and authority. They calm down again, will start again the next Wednesday and then it will be "their day" and rest.
    And who thinks that his unjust YS number is to blame for his poor performance should ask himself whether maybe one or the other opponent simply sails better ...?
    Hopefully this year we will also experience one or the other 2.4 series at the start. My negotiations with the neighboring sailing school are already underway and then I just sit down and pick up my pack ...... it doesn't matter whether I start with 122 or 118 - the limit is me.
    But whether I have the nerve to ask for a rushing, pointed keelboat with a fighting weight of almost 2t (I deliberately call no class here) at the third ton so very cool "space" and then to insist !? I don't know ...

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