Yardstick

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In recent years there have been repeated discussions about the yardstick numbers of 2.4mR. The discussion is documented below. You can continue it under comments - because it is a permanent topic!

Yardstick numbers Chiemsee: www.chiemsee-yardstick.de/zahlen.html

Yard embroidery numbers Edersee: db.wettsegeln-edersee.de/yardstick.php

Letter from Boris Hepp, Technology, Deutscher Segler-Verband e. V. (June 2014):

"Unfortunately, we have not yet received any rating recommendations for the 2.4mR, probably because this ship is not the typical yardstick aspirant on the coast.

The DSV list is naturally somewhat coastal-heavy, because the inland lakes expressly have their own district lists, and these differ significantly from the values ​​in the DSV list.

This is also a good thing because the fleet composition and local wind conditions can be taken into account so much better.

For the 2.4mR we would suggest that you take the known value and improve it yourself empirically on site. "

Comment from Stefan Klötzing (January 2009):

"Lasse Klötzing starts in his club (PYC) at the Wednesday regattas with a yardstick of 120. That works to some extent. "

Comment from Meino Nanninga (May 2010):

“We had the number of yard sticks for Lake Chiemsee last year 122 set. With 2 regattas sailed it turned out that the number is not that bad. Among a group of keel yachts with yardstick numbers between 106 and 122, I came 13rd out of 3 boats. In the overall ranking of all boat classes among 73 boats, I was 34th. "

Comment from Christian Bodler (November 2012):

"Loud www.chiemsee-yardstick.de we sail with 122 Points, but it should be noted that because of the weak winds, the slower boats are rated up to 2 points higher than on Lake Constance or the DSV. "

Comment from Detlef Müller-Böling (October 2014):

"When 121 I had no chance of flat water against Finns, but against lasers and Europes and all thick ships. 124 seems to me very comfortable after previous experiences ... "

Comment from Jürgen Schwittai (October 2014):

“The 2.4mR cuts a very good figure in light winds, so there is the impression that it could drive away everyone (except for the Finns) and run a lot more altitude. In light wind areas there was generally the impression that the yardstick number of 122 is too high, even with 120 we were e.g. T. looked strange. With more wind, from 3-4 Bft, things change.
After long discussions in NRW, we went on a trial basis 117 agreed at BSNW regattas. At our internal regattas 120. "

Commentary by Wolfgang Grupe (October 2014):

“At BSNW we have been experimenting with the YSZ for 2.4mR for several years. At the beginning we stuck to the existing ones from Chiemsee and Edersee (122). When Jürgen Schwittai won with it and Stefan Kaste was also far ahead, displeasure slowly crept into the scene; it sailed u. a. Migratory birds, yngling and especially efsixen with. Set the number to 2 120 years ago. Furthermore, 2.4 were ahead At the last AGM of the BSNW we only have the number for the year 2014 118 set as a test. Boat classes. Individual mistakes made by other sailing crews also contributed to the good performance of the 2.4. As Dept. Head of Sailing in the BSNW, I'll be the number 120 want to strive again. By the way, there are hardly any regatta results from which a "reasonable" number could be derived. Usually complete information is missing. "

Comment from Michael Büsing (October 2014):

“With light wind it is very clear that you are in the front with the 2.4mR.
What you do not consider is that you are caught in the hull speed and only see the other ships from behind in more wind. The hull speed is 2,43 * root from the waterline.
In my area I am under the Chiemsee yardstick number 122 calculated."

Comment from Michael Jakobs (October 2014):

“I participated in several YS regattas this year and I am with 118 or 120 been rated. In my opinion it is a little too little. Of course we often hear that our boats are too fast with little wind, but Michael Büsing is right: as soon as the wind picks up we are at a disadvantage and if there are still some with Spinacker or Gennacker you have no chance. "

Comment from Ullrich Libor (October 2014):

“I took part in 3 yardstick regattas here in Saarland. Had the first one 124 reported, but was on by the State Sailing Association 118 set. 3. at the club championship with Finn and Laser in front of me. 4th at the national championship with Korsar, Finn and Laser in front of me. "

Comment from Heiko Kröger (September 2015):

“Yardstick is always unfair. Sometimes more sometimes less. It always depends on the area and the wind strength and ultimately also on the courses. As soon as boats glide and others don't, the scissors gap more clearly than when everyone is driving in displacement mode. Theoretically, the yardstick would have to be designed depending on the territory and wind, and that for every boat class. You can hardly do that. The purpose of yardstick is that you can do club races with anything that swims and everyone can participate. So rule number 1 is: have fun and don't take everything so seriously. I think a yardstick is on open areas and improve at 124-125 and on small ones lake districts and improve at 122-123 should be. "

Comments by Jörg Feder (October 2014, September 2015):

“I can only agree with Boris' remarks. Our Edersee is more known for its unsteady winds. Our steamer has a bit of an advantage here, as nan can easily convert it like a dinghy. At the same time, the ratio of boat length / sail area to hull weight is rather thick-ship. The official number of the betting sailing community is 118. It is also quite low because all three participants were among the top ten at the first regatta, which of course annoys. We have a very mixed boat size field. In light winds you sometimes have to let the "big ones" drive away before the wind even reaches you below. Then you can catch up.

So it really depends on the specifics of the area.

3 wind situations:

  • You turn your lap with wind between degrees and you should actually shoot (1,5-2) Here it depends solely on the load rating of the sail, the exact sail area to the wetted area. Here the dinghy turns, pulls once allowed and has gained 1 meter. We displacers have stress to get the buck in motion first, then we go. When it comes to “getting in motion”, we have advantages if we are not in coverage.
  • It winds nicely with 3: riding does not bring sooo much, the speed is still so low that the difference between displacer and dinghy does not yet matter: our small turning angle is an advantage here. Less speed, but shorter distances. At the same time, we are agile. We can keep up
  • It blows tight to nasty (4/5): The water resistance increases with the speed until we are caught between the bow and stern wave at hull speed.
    a)
    The dinghy: the bulkhead comes to the back, bow can over the bow wave, hooray we slide, now it goes.
    B)
    The yacht: length runs, longer waterline = higher hull speed. We will hardly be able to keep up here.

So far everyone knows, only: Situation 1 is more theoretical in Flensburg, while Sitiation 3 is one of the highlights in Prien. Actually, these 3 wind situations also represent 3 yardstick numbers.

It is actually fairer to have a yardstick margin to take into account the specifics. However, this again means that you have to agree with the race director which range of the range is applicable here.

Conclusion: Exchange ideas with each other, report regattas to us and the DSV and over time it becomes more specific or we can make a KV proposal. "

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3 Comments

  • A somewhat longer view of yardstick regattas with the 2.4mR (by Poldi Käther)
    ================================================== ==================================

    First of all about my person:
    I've been sailing for around 5 decades. Started as a teenager in the 420, then various dinghy and keelboat classes. Sometimes as a bowman, sometimes as a helmsman. I've never won major championship honors, sometimes behind, sometimes in midfield, sometimes at the front. I have also sailed “Dickschiff” on the North and Baltic Seas or the Mediterranean, but never on regattas, only for the purpose of relaxing on vacation. But even here I always had the reputation of not being able to sit still with fellow sailors and family, but always pulling some lines and looking for windmills.
    But the top priority was and still is: always with a lot of fun and joy.

    With a teaching assignment for the subject “Yacht Design and Sailing Theory” I was able to convey the theoretical background for these areas to students at the TU Berlin. The number of listeners demonstrated the great interest in this topic.
    I also volunteered as a betting sailor for the Berlin Sailing Association to train referees and race managers. I always have the racing rules. As race director, I have some experience in holding club and ranking regattas, at Warnemünder Woche and in Germans up to several world championships.
    In short - theoretically everything is pretty much clear to me, but the implementation of the theory in my own regatta sailing practice is another topic.

    Construction class versus unit class:
    In one-size-fits-all sailing, the building regulations for a boat are precisely defined. The boats are, so to speak, "the same"; success depends largely on the skill of the sailor. That is why, for example, at the Olympic Games, only one-class classes are sailed.
    In contrast, the limits for construction classes are not so narrow and give the designer the opportunity to incorporate his ideas for increasing speed. The technical development of yachting benefits significantly from this. Sailing performance is not the only determining factor.

    Comparison of different sailing boats:
    Since sailing has been a sport, people have thought about how to make different boats comparable with each other. From 1896 there was the ever more refined “belt rule”, then from 1933 the “International Rule”. In 1970 the "International Offshore Rule (IOR)" was launched. Later then "IMS - International Measurement System", "ORC - Offshore Racing Congress" etc.
    All of these methods attempt (t) to make different designs comparable using calculation formulas that take into account different boat factors. And as it is, there were and are people who investigate the influencing factors in these formulas and build boats as optimally as possible. This leads to sometimes extreme constructions, long overhangs, extreme widths or lengths, depending on what was punished or favored in the formula used.

    The yardstick system approaches the problem completely differently. No calculations are carried out here, but the boats are given an empirical factor based on experience gained in several regattas. Adjustments to this yardstick number are made depending on the area. Boats that are built for long distances at sea or comfort, otherwise have little chance in small narrow areas where many maneuvers are required compared to small, light boats that can turn quickly. And vice versa.

    The German Sailing Association writes on its homepage that “the yardstick system ... is used as a measurement system for club and fun regattas.” That says it all.
    However, some principles must be observed. Regatta boats and cruise ships must never be compared in one rating. Boats must continue to be rated in different yardstick groups, a boat with a YS factor of 99 cannot be compared to a boat with a YS factor of over 120, a dinghy cannot be compared to a touring sailing boat. There is a simple calculation of how changing wind strengths (wind hole, decreasing or increasing wind) affect the calculated time during a race. Please refer http://berliner-segler-verband.de/wettsegeln.html => "Influence of changes in wind strength in YS races"

    The following things apply especially to the 2.4mR class:
    The boat is a light, agile, but classic displacement boat. Boats that cannot half-plan or plane like modern keelboats or dinghies have a speed limit. This is due to the "Froude number", which describes the resistance of ships in the wave system that he himself created. The so-called hull speed can be derived from this, i.e. the speed above which a ship cannot go beyond its displacement - "it does not come over its own bow wave". The hull speed in knots is calculated according to S = 2.43 * root [waterline length]. For our 2.4 this means a maximum achievable speed of 4.3 knots. But we reach this quickly at 3 Beaufort, if the wind gets stronger, the boat doesn't get any faster in contrast to larger boats or gliders.

    The area and the course to be sailed also have a strong influence. On small, narrow areas (e.g. rivers or dams), where a lot has to be turned on a cross course, the 2.4 is at wind speeds up to 3 Bft. unbeatable. It is light, starts quickly, turns extremely quickly and has a very small turning angle. In these conditions, our boat works like an arrow. As well as larger courses prevail or the wind with 4 or more Bft. blowing, we have no chance. Everything grins past us with a grin.
    I only say that if you know the “physical background”, you can sit back and grin and relax after the race and enjoy the winner's beer.
    It has happened to me in several club races, with 2.4 conditions you are a serious competitor for Platu 25, J24 or other sporty keel boats. But in other circumstances it is a "gladly accepted victim" for touring boats too.

    In club competitions, however, the common ground and the cooperation of all sailing groups is in the foreground, victory is welcome - winning makes friendly - but not the be-all and end-all.

    With us in Berlin on the Tegeler See and the Oberhavel the 2.4mR is rated with a YS number of 122. As I said, with 2.4 conditions you sail with it in the front, in other conditions more in the middle or in the back. Of course, the participants' sailing experience is also decisive. And the condition of the underwater ship should not be underestimated. Boats that show significant growth due to long lying in the water are clearly at a disadvantage compared to a boat that has a clean underwater ship due to the resulting increased water resistance.

    I do not believe in a “wind-dependent” yardstick number. The wind blows differently over the year and from different directions. So the 2.4 is sometimes better, sometimes worse. But that also applies to all other boats ...
    So it averages over several races per year.

    Summary:
    The winner should always be fun on yardstick races!
    The sailing performance of a team can only be assessed in one class without other influences.

    With this in mind, enjoy sailing
    Poldi

  • Andreas

    Yes Poldi, that's exactly what it is!
    As the organizer of the kangaroo (yes, WITH “h” in the back….) - Regatta on the Alster, one of the largest Wednesday regattas in Germany with often over 100 different boats at the start, we can report a lot of fun.

    https://www.hsc-regatta.org/ergebnis/kg2019gesamt.pdf

    Yardstick, of course, is not fair; how could such a simple formula be, if much more complex remuneration formulas never really made it !? In the case of the kangaroo procedure (remuneration through time delay at the start) there is also the unreliability of the wind forecast (which determines the regatta length and the start times). If the wind decreases (calm evening), the slow boats have an advantage because they have already covered a larger part of the route with more wind. If, on the other hand, it increases (evening breeze), it is the other way round ... .. So every boat class has "its day" and that averages out pretty well over the season with 21 races. Accordingly, sometimes J22, Conger, Piraten, Contender or Fiven, sometimes laser, OK's, H-dinghies (Elbe and racing), migratory birds and you name it are among the daily winners. Even the sole (and it's REALLY slow) has a top ten finish every now and then, when there is only tram driving and the dinghies are not yet gliding …….
    Our race director sits out the few eternal complainers and YS debaters with the necessary calm and authority. They calm down again, are back on the next Wednesday and then it's “their day” and peace.
    And if you think your unjust YS number is to blame for your poor performance, you should ask yourself whether one or the other opponent might just sail better ...?!
    This year we will hopefully see one or the other 2.4 at the start. My negotiations with the neighboring sailing school are already underway and then I just sit in there and pick up my pack ...... at first it doesn't matter whether I start at 122 or 118 - I am the limit.
    But whether I have the nerve to demand cool “space” from a rushing, pointed keelboat with a fighting weight of almost 2t (I deliberately don't name a class here) on the third buoy and then to insist !? I don't know …… ..schaunmermal.

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